‘The Same Chaos Playing Out In National Assembly Will Play Out At National Conference’

Catholic Bishop Of Sokoto Diocese, Reverend Dr. Mathew Hassan Kukah in this interview with SAMSON EZEA speaks on the ongoing political struggle for power between the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) and the All Progressives Congress (APC) ahead of 2015 general elections, the proposed National Conference, and other topical issues.
WHAT are your fears for the country ahead of 2015 general elections, considering the level of desperation being displayed by politicians?

I have no fears, strange as it may sound to you. Most of the issues are based on the theatrical exuberance of the media which likes the drama and tends toward waking up the demons among us.
  I know that ordinarily our people are more discerning than you journalists, so give them credit for that. They have the capacity to sift the chaff from the grain. The problem is the connivance of the elite who use the instruments of state such as the security agents, some members of the electoral bodies, the members of the judiciary who all see their positions as opportunities to connive with the devil and make money. These are the key problems and the media has a role in focusing more on the irresponsibility of those you refer to as desperados. Why do the media outlets give such personalities so much attention in the dubious name; freedom of speech.
   Freedom of speech is not freedom to be irresponsible with speech and behaviour. We must only encourage our people to be peaceful and discerning. We must focus on the nobility of politics and public life and seek ways to keep the desperate criminals out of public life. That is the challenge, not for 2015, but for Nigeria.
Are you saying that you are not worried that the country may remain more divided after the 2015 elections than united?
There is too much money to be stolen and even these thieves do not want to contemplate a broken country.  I believe that over 90% of ordinary Nigerians want to live in a peaceful country. Again, it is many of you journalists who continue to beat these torn drums of Nigeria breaking up. This notion is based on a total misreading of the culture and disposition of ordinary citizens in Nigeria. I am yet to see the text of those who believe this nonsense.
What is your view on the recent call by leadership of APC to their lawmakers to block the passage of all the executive budgets including the 2014 budgets?
Did you follow how President Obama dealt with the Republicans when they took the stupid step of shutting down government? The leadership of APC must know that their members in the National Assembly need this money more desperately as it is their feeding bottles. So, unless the party has a separate budget for its members, they will be courting disaster because no Nigerian politician has any commitment to sacrifice. They will all migrate to where the money is. The call could backfire badly on a party that is still not fully up and running and has passengers who have boarded their train with emergency tickets.
The way the country is moving politically ahead of next year’s election, don’t you think that US prediction that the country may break in 2015 will come to pass? 
Sadly and tragically, this is where the Nigerian media and other gullible Nigerians borrowed these dubious claims that Nigeria will break up because the United States said so.
    I believe I was one of the very first persons to read that report when it came out because someone high up wanted my views on the report. I also knew the context of the writing of the report.
Nowhere in the report did the scholars say that Nigeria would break up. They stated that the political elite in Nigeria were caught up in a marriage in which none of the parties seems happy, but no one contemplates a break-up. This was an important statement and an affirmation of the commitment of our people to one nation. However, the report went on, there was need for the elite to think more clearly about how to fix Nigeria, else, they said, there could be a coup organised by a bunch of young and angry soldiers.
  Countries create scenarios, they forecast, they attempt to look into the future and create permutations. I was in London some days ago for a similar consultation, looking at where the world would be in 2040. Yes 2040. We were 65 from 25 countries around the world, including all the most powerful ones you can think of. I was the only one from Nigeria along with three other Africans. The world does not with the pepper soup mentality that characterises our country where all we are thinking about is how to steal power in 2015.  
  This is why we are stuck, there is no imagination, no vision, only “TODAY and NOW”. It is this mentality that produces the rot that we are in, and this is why we cannot plan beyond the next elections when the bandits descend on us.
Recently, a member of Northern Elders Forum (NEF) Prof. Ango Abdullahi said the North would drag former Chief of Army Staff, Lt. General Azubuike Ihejirika (rtd) to I CC for genocide in the North. Do you think the threat was in order? 
 Abdullahi is a Professor and he knows that there are procedures for going to Hague. You do not go to Hague out of frustration or anger. Who is he representing at the ICC in Hague, Boko Haram? If so, they will not go to Hague because they want an Islamic state. He is better off making the nearest Sharia Court a court of first instance. But, then, is General Ihejirika the Commander in Chief? Why single him out?
   But then, he is merely expressing an opinion, so I think he should be allowed to formally assemble his legal team and then approach them at the Hague. It is a free country, but imagine if he had threatened General Abacha’s Chief of Army Staff or even make this threat under his good friend, President Obasanjo whom he served.
Don’t you think that such threats will create more problems in the country? 
What threat? Is an opinion not a threat? I am more than qualify to be a Northern elder and if Professor Abdullahi wants to go to Hague on our behalf, he should at least consult us now.
  This is a Democracy and the North belongs to us all, or is he planning to give us a haircut in our absence? If he does not show evidence of wide consultation and consensus, then we can take it that he is a lone gunman.
What is your view on the ongoing political crisis in Rivers State?
What phase of the crisis are you talking about? Even then, just know that the politicians will always resolve their problems in the end, not on the pages of newspapers.
   Never take their quarrels too serious or you may get burnt as you may not be there when it would be resolved. They are in public life to solve problems; those they create and those created by others. We just pray for them to acquire the skills for doing so.
How would you rate the government’s efforts so far in curbing Boko Haram insurgency in the North?
 I appreciate the efforts that have been made. I am saddened by the persistence of the killings, but every evil has an end. The President and his security people have done a great job within what is available to them. Remember that we have never faced all this before and no one was really prepared. As you can see, their confidence is rising. Did you listen to the new Chief of Defence Staff? That is how it should sound
 But has the State of Emergency declared by the Federal Government brought about any positive impact considering that killings are still going on in the states?
It is tragic that the killings continue to go on. The Nigerian state remains very weak and these attacks are a mark of its vulnerability. Our lack of technological advancement and the application of semi-primitive methodologies for dealing with issues of state security in a time when the world has become so sophisticated is a cause of worry. Tens of miles of open spaces, lack of adequate motivation for community policing and so on.
   I worry about the long-term implications of all this for normalcy and long-term peace. First, we are unable to frame the issues well and poor diagnosis must lead to poor treatment. We pray that the various communities and other citizens will continue to collaborate with the security agencies for greater effectiveness. We cannot go on like this into the elections and that is why I pray that the commitment made by the CDS can be realised.
Looking at the modalities for the proposed National Conference released by government, do you think anything good would come out of it?
Let us wait and see how things turn out. Our nation is averse to rigorous thinking. Once the government has made up its mind about something, it begins to find only like-minded people. 
   Our leaders are averse to the injection of rigour and criticism of policies, a process which actually ensures long time effectiveness.
   There are lessons that ought to be learned as to why earlier processes did not succeed or why reports were never carried forward.
Sadly, as I said earlier, I foresee a rather cantankerous gathering of people with political ambitions, government grammar phones who will pretend they are representing their people, political gladiators trying to make a mark, strategists seeking a place in the sun as future commissioners, governors and so on, people looking for a chance to become President or Governors’ blue eyed boys or girls. Can anyone who disagrees with his or her governor represent the state? With the presence of politicians, other outsiders will not be able to effectively dilute or tame their ambitious grandstanding and posturing. The same chaos playing out in the National Assembly will play out at the National Dialogue. It is a plus for the President.
 Although something will definitely come out, but like the contents of the stomach of an elephant, we never say what it will be. Even chaos or confusion is something.
State Security Services (SSS) recently warned the political class to desist from making inflammatory statements capable of causing crisis in the country. What is your view on this? 
SSS does not have to warn anyone. The relevant laws are there. It is a balance between real freedom of speech and responsibility which we all owe ourselves, our communities, and the country at large.